HBH veggie flakes

[abegie]

Well Keith, I definitely find what you have said interesting. I don't think anyone will dispute that fresh foods in the right quantities with the right variety to be able to completely fill the nutritional needs of your crabs is the absolute best way to go, but there is no doubt that that can be a difficult thing to accomplish. Which is why the availability of commercial foods that claim to do that can be awful tempting. I suppose if one were worried about meeting the nutritional needs with fresh food, one could use a diet of fresh food supplemented by the highest quality of commercial food available. This would at least minimize the risk. The bottom line is that this is a choice we all have to make as hermit crab owners, and do our best with the limited information we have to try and do the best we can for our hermit crabs.

[Wai]

I had a quick look through the journal databases and cut snippets from the following published articles. Both studies were conducted on human lymphocytes in vitro.

DNA damage induced by ethoxyquin in human peripheral lymphocytes
by Alina Błaszczyk, accepted 30 September 2005.

Ethoxyquin (1,2-dihydro-6-ethoxy-2,2,4-trimethylquinoline, EQ) is widely used in various food products and in animal feeds because of its powerful antioxidant activity. This compound was recently found to cause not only many unfavourable side-effects in animals fed with feeds containing it, but also adverse effects in people exposed to it at work. In the present study, DNA damage induced by EQ in human lymphocytes has been assessed. The alkaline single cell gel electrophoresis assay (comet assay) was used to measure DNA damage. The cells were treated for 1 h with EQ doses ranging from 1 to 250 μM in the absence or in the presence of an exogenous metabolic activation system (S9mix). The obtained results showed that EQ-induced DNA damage in human lymphocytes in a dose-dependent manner; the observed DNA fragmentation induced by EQ in the presence of metabolic activation system was always significantly lower, as compared to cells treated with the same doses of EQ alone.

Genotoxic and antioxidant activities of ethoxyquin salts evaluated by the comet assay
by Alina Błaszczyk, Janusz Skolimowski and Alicja Materac, accepted on 24 July 2006.

It was reported that EQ was cytotoxic in vitro at concentrations ranging from 50 to 500 μM; it significantly decreased lymphocyte viability in cell cultures and induced increase in the number of apoptotic cells. Moreover, it was shown that after EQ treatment abnormal chromosomes appeared in cell cultures and in the comet assay strong fragmentation of DNA was also observed. Cytotoxicity and genotoxicity of EQ could be among the factors, which influenced animal health.

Alina Błaszczyk and Alicja Materac are from the Department of Cytogenetics and Plant Molecular Biology, University of Łódź, Banacha 12/16, 90-237 Łódź, Poland. Janusz Skolimowski is from the Department of Organic Chemistry, University of Łódź, Narutowicza 68, 90-136 Łódź, Poland.

---
Edit:
Sorry guys, but invertebrates don't have lymphocytes! Still, hermit crabs have DNA, so there is a change that ethoxyquin may act as a mutagen in their body.
---

However, I couldn't find any journal article that contained the word "ethoxyquin" and one of the following: "Coenobita", "crustacean" or "arthropod", so I guess no professor has investigated on it.

[kgbenson]

Got very tired of reading all the wordiness which is highly unnecessary.

I don't think so, these are topics with many facets. To oversimplify them leads to bad choices.

It's enough for me to know that Ethoxyquin is highly controversial as a preservative in pet foods,

Just because something is controversial should not be cause for anything. There are loads of controversies out there, let them limit you and you would be paralyzed into non-action.

the ONLY human food it is allowed in is paprika as that is generally used in very small amounts,

Yep. And it is used to preserve .. . carotenes. Might be something to think about in animals with a high carotene requirement.

and it is being linked to nervous system disorders in pet dogs and cats.

I think we need to have a little accuracy here. The main issue is not one of nervous system disorders but of liver and kidney. But look at the trials and the amounts used. That is important data.

Read here: www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/0003red.pdf

The fact that it is used as an ingredient in insecticides,

In fact it is not used in insecticides. It is used to prevent pear scald. It is termed a pesticide because of this but, in fact, pear scald is not a pest problem but rather an issue of the physiology of the pear. Again - read the above link.

it is also used as a hardening agent in the manufacturing of rubber.

The fact that it can be used to harden rubber is irrelevant. That does not make it a toxin. Please cite relevant information. Oxygen is used in any number of manufacturing processes, I wouldn't deny it to my crabs though.

The fact, also, that it is BANNED for use in human food (other than a few spices), leads one to conclude that it is NOT a good thing to be putting into one's body or the body of one's beloved pet.

Does it?

I will continue to warn people away from it, I don't need to make conclusive statements about it, but I am free to state (accurately) that it is possibly a slow toxin for the crabs.

you are free to state whatever you like, no one is arguing that you are not. But others are free to make statements as well. I think it could be successfully argued that the statement above is more accurate than some of the others we have seen about ethoxyquine, statements that tend to be more black and white.

I always recommend fresh food be fed to pet hermit crabs, and never recommend saving foods for long periods to feed later, unless the food is frozen.

And that is some fine advice. Please don't take discussion of one point to be suggesting that anything else you or anyone else says is in error. None of this discussion is personal, it is about particular bits of information, nothing more, nothing less.

Keith

[ladybug15057]

Lots of information on ethoxyquin and if one types it in a search engine a lot more will come up too. This was researched a few years ago when Marley first brought it to the crabbing communities attention. There were/are many more nightmare stories that what the suppose to be benefit is of this chemical. Hermies have DNA too, but who is going to invest the thousands of dollars it would take to experiment and see what damage would be done to their DNA or any other effects? Because of what I have read over the years I will continue to mention not to use foods with this chemical within it as well. One IS able to provide their hermies with a full well balanced nutritional diet with human fresh foods that do not contain this chemical. One can also provide freeze dried as well as dehydrated foods as well.
As for the foods being changed out before they loose their nutritional value? If one reads throughout HCParadise it is recommended to change fresh food for fresh daily. Does this happen with all crabbers? Possibly not, but to try to drill the subject is mute. Facts have been stated... let's get on with crabbing... fresh foods rule!

Edited to add: Of course if one were to have a couple hundred hermies or so... fresh foods maybe next to impossible to do so they may need to use the chemical type foods. But for 99.9% of members and staff here... fresh foods all the way! (or freeze dried and dehydrated!)

[kgbenson]

Lots of information on ethoxyquin and if one types it in a search engine a lot more will come up too.

Firing something like ethoxyquin into a search engine is not exactly doing research, unless you simply want to know what people have taken the time to put out on the web. Recognizing that the ratio of lay people to actual scientists (and lets face it, this is a topic that is best investigated by scientists) is probably on the order of >99:1.

This was researched a few years ago when Marley first brought it to the crabbing communities attention.

Researched? Or looked up? Looked up where? I can find (and apparently neither can Wai) any research that has been reported.

There were/are many more nightmare stories that what the suppose to be benefit is of this chemical.

I am not certain I understand this sentence.

Hermies have DNA too, but who is going to invest the thousands of dollars it would take to experiment and see what damage would be done to their DNA or any other effects?

That depends. For the sake of learning about it's effects in Coenobita just to know? Probably none. But that doesn't mean such research might not be done - there could be other reasons to pursue this line of inquiry - though I agree that the likelihood is remote.

Because of what I have read over the years I will continue to mention not to use foods with this chemical within it as well. One IS able to provide their hermies with a full well balanced nutritional diet with human fresh foods that do not contain this chemical.

I believe we agree on that, at least

One can also provide freeze dried as well as dehydrated foods as well.

These do not last forever, especially thing like carotenes and unsaturated fats.

As for the foods being changed out before they loose their nutritional value? If one reads throughout HCParadise it is recommended to change fresh food for fresh daily.

Um - I meant rotating stock in storage, not just what is in the tank. I would not keep something I was relying on for the more labile materials (especially fats) for more than several months in the freezer - unless the fats were protected somehow.

Edited to add: Of course if one were to have a couple hundred hermies or so... fresh foods maybe next to impossible to do so they may need to use the chemical type foods. But for 99.9% of members and staff here... fresh foods all the way! (or freeze dried and dehydrated!)

[/quote]

Staff? There is an entire staff? Fascinating.

Keith[/quote]

[Wai]

This was researched a few years ago when Marley first brought it to the crabbing communities attention.

Researched? Or looked up? Looked up where? I can find (and apparently neither can Wai) any research that has been reported.

An Aussie crabber named Vanessa Pike-Russell (who has access to the scientific journal databases at her university like I do) did a lot of research on Coenobita and recorded the hyperlinks down on one of her research websites. However, many of the links no longer work due to the content being moved around and I have yet to find out which specific articles she looked up.

I looked through several scientific journal databases for information on Coenobita, but there are no published articles about keeping Coenobita as pets. Therefore, no existing method is scientifically proven to an academic level or is academically more credible than another. At university, I am frequently reminded by professors not to take any so-called research seriously unless its documents have been proof-read for academic protocol and published by a board of scholars.

[kgbenson]

I looked through several scientific journal databases for information on Coenobita, but there are no published articles about keeping Coenobita as pets.

I wouldn't expect that you would if you are looking for Coenobita as pets. If you widen the search to crustacea, decapoda, anamuran etc and ethoxyquin you still get nothing, at least I did.

Therefore, no existing method is scientifically proven to an academic level or is academically more credible than another.

If it exists you are going to find this info where large numbers of animals are housed and feed as a group, animals with significant, easy to measure economic value to large numbers of people, animals that provide nourishment, animals that are being raised throughout their life cycle etc. Not pet hermit crabs. I think you are far more likely to locate it in the literature on shrimp feeds, lobster feeds and crab feeds, particularly as it pertains to rearing larvae. There have been some efforts on eliminating live foods from the protocols and that means creating or harvesting and importantly, preserving feeds. That is where the info will be - if there is any. Lack of it could mean a) no one used the stuff and therefore have nothing to say or B) they used it and didn't think it was an issue and didn't say or C) they may have even used it and been unaware if they were not paying attention to sources of ration components (it would be surprising but it could happen). So - unless someone looks at rearing some decapod on a non-living feed preserved with Ethoxyquin, I think we are unlikely to find much.

What we need are some ovigerous females and a way of feeding the larvae without using live feeds like the old standby of artemia naupulii. If it doesn't affect them as they grow in the plankton and undergo all sorts of interesting chances then you would feed it to some for their first dozen molts or so and see what happens. OF course the devil is in the details such as , what ppm of Ethoxy in the feed, How many individuals per group, how many replicates, what would you be measuring exactly etc. The reality is that someone might do that with commercial hatchery species, but it will be a long time coming until someone does this with coenobita unless some individual takes a personal interest.

Keith

[Wai]

What I did find interesting from the articles I mentioned before were the ethoxyquin salts (derivatives of ethoxyquin). Some of the salts had similar antioxidant properties to the parent ethoxyquin molecule, but had a less toxic profile. On the hermit crab food products, we tend to just see "ethoxyquin", so can we assume that it is ethoxyquin and not one of its salts? Most other ingredients are listed specifically as what salt they come in.

[kgbenson]

What I did find interesting from the articles I mentioned before were the ethoxyquin salts (derivatives of ethoxyquin). Some of the salts had similar antioxidant properties to the parent ethoxyquin molecule, but had a less toxic profile. On the hermit crab food products, we tend to just see "ethoxyquin", so can we assume that it is ethoxyquin and not one of its salts? Most other ingredients are listed specifically as what salt they come in.

I would assume it is the parent molecule.

Keith

[cometstream]

Um isn't the t rex normal crab food good cuz if it is i will recommend it to him if he really wants to use commercail food